VIBE: How did you get involved with producing Mr. Untouchable?
DAMON DASH: You know I'm from Harlem, and I been trying to make the Nicky Barnes movie for like 10 years. I first got the rights from Nicky Barnes' lawyer, and then I later got the rights from Jazz Hayden, who was the only guy that Nicky Barnes didn't snitch on. I got scripts, but I couldn't get Hollywood to embrace it, so I was working with Mark Levin on something else and when he told me that he was doing Nicky Barnes, I was elated. He got Nicky Barnes to actually talk, [after] he'd just disappeared for 25 years. I was like, this is going to be big. I felt that it should hit the scope beyond just urban people; I think this story could translate to pop culture. My job is always to make sure something appears really big, and that it's sensible to all walks of life and that everything in it, including the music is a component of it. Hi-Tek did the music and I would hire him for any other movies.
What did the legend of Barnes mean to you?
He was the mayor of Harlem. He had the best clothes, the best jewelry, he was publicly beating the government's ass, he had all the chicks, all the cars, he was even beating the Italians' ass - meaning, he said you got to pay a tax if you come through here. So he was our hero. Not to say that it's right or wrong, but when you come from that environment, that's all you know. Hustling ain't a bad thing when you're born into it. You don't really realize how wrong it is.
Also, he was the one that punished snitches the most. Even the thought of a snitch got punished, you understand what I'm saying? We were petitioning for him. But then when he told, the betrayal, the shock of it... like, if it was somebody else, it would've been aight - not to say it's ever all right - but it wouldn't have hurt. But it was him. He was the ambassador of Harlem. He embarrassed all of us by doing that. And then his rationale now, [that he snitched because he thought one of his crew was sleeping with his girl]? I don't really believe that that could possibly be it - someone putting 70 people in jail over a woman? I just don't think it's gonna happen.
You don't think it had anything to do with people being sloppy and people fuckin his girl?
I think they gave him an excuse to do it. That's what it sounds like to me. And again it's based on how I was raised, the people that brought me up and the conditioning of my mind, you know what I'm saying? So I was a little disappointed with that excuse.
You do believe that the whole 'no snitching' campaign has gone a little too far, though, as far as people saying they wouldn't snitch on child molesters...
I think you have to understand the context in which it's said. I don't think people understand it enough to speak on it. Meaning, if you are committed to a certain way of living - committed to it - you're establishing your own rules. Like, you now sell drugs, you now murder, you now kill, you know steal, you now rob, you're breaking all the laws. So in certain neighborhoods, if there's a child molester, the neighborhood is gonna handle it. They not gonna call the police. That person may end up in the garbage truck somewhere. You understand? And I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but that's the policy you've committed to.
So when people say no snitching, snitching means you used to be a criminal and now you're telling on criminals. A policeman doesn't snitch, no one's mad at the cops. People are mad at people that were professed criminals and enjoyed it and then, as it behooved them, decided to break the rules. That's what snitching is. And I don't think people understand that. So, that's not snitching if a civilian tells on a criminal or a child molester. Now if a hit man tells on a child molester then that's an oxymoron to me.
I saw American Gangster already. The one thing that stuck out to me was how Frank Lucas was portrayed as the true drug kingpin of Harlem, and Barnes comes off looking like a buffoon.
Well, that's a movie. What's a movie? Movies aren't meant to be reality, they're meant to be a fantasy so that is Harlem Fantasy Island. It's a good Harlem Fantasy Island, but being that - I don't wanna watch Fantasy Island, I wanna watch what's real. I hope that it does well, because it [could] open the doors for a lot of urban content, but it's not the movie that I would make, because I don't deal in fantasy. Just like in my music I never dealt in fantasy.
We all know that Nicky showed up for the documentary. Did you want to meet him?
I didn't speak to him. I'm curious, that's human nature, but again, as I'm conditioned, I don't wanna be in the same room as him. Just based on where I'm from and what I've been taught, it's not acceptable.
Your documentary humanized Nicky Barnes. What are you trying to say about Harlem, about that time?
I want people to understand that Nicky Barnes - and it's not about Nicky Barnes, it's about Harlem - Nicky Barnes is a product of Harlem, and then he went wrong. I think people should understand the texture of Harlem, the influence of Harlem, and most important, and if you look in any movie that I've made - any real movie like Paid in Full - this is always the mathematical equation: you sell drugs, you make a lot of money for a short period of time, that period of time is a whole lot of fun, but what ultimately ends up happening is either somebody kills you or somebody tells on you or you end up telling on somebody. That is what the equation equals at all times. And if you look at this equation and you still want to do it, then you deserve what you get.
Wow. Outside of that, of course you're doing Beyond Reasonable Doubt. What made you decide to release that only on the web?
I wouldn't say we released it 'cause we're not gonna make any money from it, you know what I'm saying? You know, I made a lot of music and sometimes it didn't come out but it was still good music nonetheless 'cause it cost money to put it out. So, I think people should at least get to hear it, you know what I'm saying?
Kanye is probably the biggest cat out right now and you're the guy that brought him over to the Roc. Do you sometimes hit yourself on the head like, 'Damn, I should've tried to take that dude with me'?
He doesn't sell enough records to financially affect me. It costs too much to make and promoted the record. At the end of the day, 2.5 million records doesn't put no money in my pocket. So it's great to have perception-wise, and with the fact that I signed him, I still get the perception anyway, so I don't need the headache and the heartache and running behind and him showing up late, from what I read. He's a cool dude and all that, but the music business overall is a thankless job in my position. When everything's going wrong, people blame it on you; when everything's going right, people don't even acknowledge you. And every single artist I've had has done that. It's just a thankless job. I don't need it.
But when you get that job, you've kind of resigned to that fact that it is a thankless job, right?
I don't give a fuck really about the credit. But it's like yo, if I'ma work this hard, I gotta make a lot of money. On another level if I do it for the love, I don't wanna be aggravated. Quality of living means a lot to me too; I'm sick of being aggravated, I'm sick of arguing with people. You know how much I had to argue with people for them to promote Jay-Z? His whole career was me pushing people to work for him - and then the minute they did, look what happened? [Laughs] And it's the same thing with Kanye; so why would I put myself in that position again? If it can happen to Jay, because he was the number one guy that I never thought would do that, that means it's definitely gonna happen to everybody.
You've probably heard some cuts: what are your thoughts on Jay-Z's American Gangster album?
I mean, it's not fair to ask me that question because no matter what, it's not an objective question. The question that I would have to ask you, and I'm curious to see if you'd answer honestly and print it, is what do you think of it?
Well, I didn't really care too much for 'Blue Magic,' but I heard some other songs that I did dig, especially that uptempo joint that he has, the Roc joint ["Roc Boys"].
So there it is. When I worked with Jay-Z, we made Reasonable Doubt and Blueprint. If it's not that, I'm disappointed. I'm not saying it is or it isn't, that's just my comment. Like, I'm used to that Jay-Z. That's the only Jay-Z I know. I don't know this Jay-Z.
I interviewed you a while back and you forecasted that people loved you then, but that you knew in another few years, they'd turn on you. And you seemed to be right: it seems like everybody who was holding you up on their shoulders is on some bullshit now. What's your take on that?
It's just human nature. Like you said, I knew it was gonna happen, you know, and that's why I've always tried to be four, five steps ahead of the game. When the streets was getting played out I hit the music scene, when the music was getting played out, before anybody else did it, I hit the fashion scene. Fashion scene is getting played out, urban-wise, so I hit the real fashion scene and movies. Movies get played out, I'll be doing something else. The present is always temporary, man, the future is what you gotta work towards, so I always look at human nature. That doesn't only happen to me. Not to bring Jay into it, but 5 years ago, no one would say one bad word against him - it would never happen, he was untouchable, he was clean. Now he's like battered and bruised and people use him as a go-to, and I can't even believe it, it's sad for me to see. You see what I'm saying? Like, anybody, anytime they feel like they need to battle, they go right at him. That would never happen five years ago. But I saw that.
He keeps making records, of course; he's too old. You know, they're gonna come at him when they feel he's not as strong, and that's what's going on. It happens.
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