Give T.I. an opportunity to make an impression, and rest assured, he’ll do exactly that. No other rapper has ever been such a natural politician. Whether greeting fans, or Hollywood directors, or the press, the man born Clifford Harris Jr. knows how to make everyone he comes in contact with feel as if they’re getting his full attention, even if just for a moment. Now, granted, getting T.I.’s full attention isn’t always a good thing (just ask Lil Flip) and he’s certainly had his share of slip ups—the case comes to mind — but if you spend time around him, you’ll get the sense that T.I. is genuinely interested in expanding his horizons by expanding his social circle. (You have to be able to relate to the people in order to be king after all, right?) So while it came as a bit of a surprise when T.I. mentioned that noted scholar and author, Dr. Michael Eric Dyson, visited him at his Atlanta home while he was under house arrest in December of 2006, it wasn’t mind-blowing. But you know we had to give Dr. Dyson a call to hear a little bit more about how it all went down.
VIBE: While working on this piece, T.I. mentioned that you actually came to visit him at his house at one point during his home confinement. How did you guys first meet?
Dr. Michael Eric Dyson: We appeared on [BET’s] Hip Hop vs. America program together. Me, him, and what’s my man’s name?…Nelly. And of course I knew his music and appreciated him as an artist. And [on that show] we got a chance to talk about things, agree with some things, and disagree about other things. But I respected his intelligence and how he was, as many others of his generation, underappreciated for the kind of thoughtful and reflective nature of what he was up to. Even if you disagree with someone, to conceive or perceive the legitimacy of what they were doing, because you understand that they are smart and thoughtful about it is sometimes hard for my generation. And when I heard that he was in trouble, long story short, I arranged to see him. I went there to both talk to him about the challenges he was facing, but also to give him encouragement, as he confronted his particular trial, knowing that regardless of what the public story was, there is always a more intimate and personal narrative that lies behind that. I believe that he’s an incredibly brilliant young man who is open and honest about his flaws, the mistakes he’s made, and his desire to constantly evolve and grow. We talked about the public perception of him as an artist but also his willing responsibility as a representative of his generation to go forward. To be responsible for himself and also to take up an even greater pledge to do the right thing. I was very impressed with his maturity, with his critical reflection and with his ability to both defend the kind of ideas that he has as well as what hip-hop means to his generation.
Is there anything that he said, that really struck you?
What struck me was his lack of defensiveness about the situation he was in. Some of these cats can be wrong with two left shoes on, but his mature reflection on the choices he made and why he made them and what he would have to do to change in the future impressed me. He wasn’t trying to pretend to be a saint, but he understood that he was in the public spotlight, that he felt the need to defend himself, that [that need] had been misinterpreted and got out of hand and that he was trying to really reflect upon the best path for him to take as he negotiated fame and the demands of the public but also remain true to who he is as a person. What also struck me in that lack of defensiveness was the willingness to be self-critical about the choices that he made, and that could have been made in his particular generation, and what he was willing to do to try to deal with that. And then thirdly, I think what struck me is the fact that our easy report came because I’m equally willing to be self-critical about my generation, what we failed to do to pass on information and mentorship to some of these younger brothers. His willingness to receive that insight and wisdom as well as share his own thoughts struck me.
Do you remember your initial reaction when you heard the news about the arrest?
I was sad, man. Because I knew that this young man was far smarter, far wiser, and far more intelligent than people might give him credit. They might think, Oh another rapper makes a stupid mistake and showed that they have no substance and they’re all about bling and booze and broads, and obviously the guns, but I knew that this story was more complex. Even if he had made a mistake, even if he had done something wrong, I believed he was bigger and sharper and smarter than all of his troubles, and given the right opportunity, all of us get a chance to grow beyond our mistakes. I immediately felt that. I did not want to see this young man go down because I think investing in him is investing in the intelligence and the potential wisdom of our future.
Have you followed the last two years of the case, the community service requirements, and all of that?
Yeah, and I see that as not just a ploy to let me reduce my time and get it done with, but that obviously it’s another avenue for him to pursue some goals and aspirations he already had. If you listen a lot of his music as I did, you’ll find, of course, the stories and the narratives about the drug dealing and the so-called hustling life, but you see as well the prayers on his album and the desire to somehow mediate that experience with a sort of wisdom that’s derived from the streets but doesn’t end there. And in that sense he’s like 2Pac. And so I’ve kept up with some of the stuff that he’s been doing and I think all for the good, all for the discipline of directing your social energy in a way that can be redemptive and help others, and I think he intended that all along with his music at his best. So I don’t see it as a contradiction or a conflict with what his aspirations were along.
Have you been impressed with how he’s handled the whole situation?
Yeah. You know why? He’s not going around bellyaching and he’s not trying to put the blame on anyone else. Ultimately, he takes responsibility for what he’s done and the choices he made. That’s different than a justification. He gives an explanation for what his mindset and obviously those folk that aren’t in the public eye, who don’t have a security concern, may not understand some of the choices made. But what I appreciate about him is he’s moved forward, he’s taken responsibility for what he’s done. He has been an exemplary role model for people coming behind him.
T.I. has referenced Washington Redskins safety, Sean Taylor, who was shot and killed when his home was invaded in November 2007, as an example of people who were in the public eye and known to have money and in some ways be targeted. Do you have sympathy for T.I.’s desire to arm himself?
Absolutely. Now, obviously there are legal, prescribed, ways to go about it, so there’s a caveat. [But] as a person in the public eye, not [even] as a rapper, you get death threats. You get people who want to hurt you. You get threatening emails and letters. You get hatred. So I completely understand that at that level of visibility and vulnerability why somebody would want to be protected from some of the nefarious forces that want to do you harm. The Sean Taylor case, [T.I.’s] friend who was murdered in Ohio—there are real concerns.
You’ve already referenced ’Pac. What do you expect from T.I. moving forward? Do you expect him to grow into more of a leader? Or even just grow as a rapper and father?
Obama rapped his way to the White House in his own genre and own specific political field and being a father has made him an exemplary role model to so many millions. Not just black people, but Americans who look at the beauty of that. And I think when you look at a guy like T.I. who’s intelligent and an industrious family man and who loves his family and wears his love for them on his sleeve, that is especially winning in a patriarchal culture that is rife with machismo. His willing embrace of his familial responsibility is a beautiful thing. So with this, he is a leader in a community where fathers are sparse. Sparser than they should be because of the economic conditions or the crisis they confront, or the abandonment of family that a lot of these young brothers rap about, so doing that would be—being a good father and a good rapper would be a beautiful thing. Anything else is gravy. I happen to believe, however, that given the same celebrity and status and the visibility and troubles and trials he’s endured, I think he’ll put that to good use. And I think he’ll continue to explore whatever available avenues there are to articulate that publicly, about being responsible, about being socially conscious, about taking care of your responsibility as a man to your family, and what that means, and not just protecting them physically, but also giving them inspiration, and giving other young people who don’t have the advantage of having a T.I. as a daddy, inspiration as well.
So you do have a hope for greatness for T.I, even after all this?
No doubt. I mean, look, you don’t judge a person by his flaws, you judge him by how he integrates those flaws into his life and career. You look at the whole box score, you don’t look at one inning. This is one inning in the man’s life. So I think that we can’t judge him. I’ve written books about Martin Luther King Jr., a flawed man, Marvin Gaye, a flawed man, Tupac Shakur, a flawed man, Malcolm X, a flawed man, and so the flaws of our leaders or great figures only make them more interesting because it contrasts with the level of their genius and shows us that these are human beings after all. [Who] with all their flaws, and their foibles, and failures, nevertheless illuminate for the rest of us the nature of striving for greatness and the ability to overcome mistakes and missteps in order to be even more faithful and devoted to their craft after becoming a better human being.
In a lot of ways, then, it makes them better leaders.
No question about it. I’m suspicious to the flawless leader. First of all, none exist. [And] those without blemish don’t have the burden of their humanity to account for as they make decisions and lead people. As a result of that, they won’t be informed by the temptations, the seductions, and the irritating persistent flaws and failures we all have to contend with. But those that are in touch with their humanity make far better leaders.
Dr. Michael Eric Dyson’s new book, Can You Hear Me Now? The Inspiration, Wisdom and Insight of Michael Eric Dyson (Basic Civitas Books), drops on May 11.
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