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Interview: RZA And Mathematics Build On Wu-Tang Clan's New Album 'The Saga Continues'

Wu-Tang Clan saga continues. 

It's been a while since the Wu-Tang Clan had a hit song. And this is not a front on the Wu, either. Failing to have a ubiquitous radio-friendly record or a semi-unanimous classic album on the charts in recent years does not negate what the gods of rap have done for the culture. From clothing, slang, movies, pushing self-taught knowledge, timeless albums, and arguably, the most unique sound in hip-hop, the nine-member crew have left their killer bee stings on all corners of the world. But in this fickle music industry, you're only as good as your last hit, and the golden Wu-Tang era is long behind us.

The ghetto motley crew's most influential music was released more than twenty years ago (Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers), Liquid Swords, Supreme Clientele, Wu-Tang Forever, and Only Built 4 Cuban Linx, to name a few). So when "The Triumph" rappers released their eighth studio album last week (Oct. 13), The Saga Continues, many Wu fans were overcome with a bit of anxiety. We don't want our heroes to drop duds and take an embarrassing fall from grace.

But Wu's frontman, Zig-Zag-Zig Allah, a.k.a. RZA, has a trick up his sleeve. The 48-year-old entrepreneur/rapper/producer/actor/filmmaker allowed his longtime protégé Allah Mathematics to guide the direction of The Saga Continues. Not that Bobby Steels doesn't have the ammo to complete the album. He's still, and will forever be, one of the most skilled beatmakers in hip-hop. Bobby Digital is just letting his fellow god breathe a little bit. Math's extensive catalog includes bangers like "Mighty Healthy" (Ghostface Killa) and "Wu-Banga 101," (Ghostface Killah) "Mean Streets" (Raekwon)," Stick Me for My Riches" (Wu-Tang Clan), and many others. So the Jamaica, Queens native is qualified and ready for the job.

Recently, RZA and Mathematics stopped by VIBE's base of operations to discuss The Saga Continues, its lyrical content, the lukewarm response to 2014's A Better Tomorrow, and more.

VIBE: Math, you studied Enter The Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) and Dr. Dre's Chronic 2001 before going into this project. What did you learn from these vastly different projects?
Mathematics: I picked up certain things that I never acknowledged before. The use of different sounds, the beginning to the end--the completeness of those albums. I'm grateful and I really took the time to benefit and learn from him [RZA] also. But as far as studying Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers), it's like you in a fight, and you trying to block, you're going to get caught because he's going to catch you with something you didn't see. It was like that. With Chronic 2001, I acknowledged a lot of instruments used by Dre. And the sounds. I studied the use of space and Dre's drums. His drums are different from our drums. I took pages from each one of those albums and added that to what I already knew.

You've produced a lot of tracks over the years. Does this feel like your biggest project to date?
Mathematics: Oh yes. But I've never done it in this capacity. This level. And even the knowledge that I had of music today, I didn't have then. I had a drive, a passion. I wanted this to be as tight as I could make it, and get out. It's like you got a backed-up nut and you want to get it off.

How would you compare this project to other Wu-Tang albums?
Mathematics: I will let the fans do the comparisons.

RZA: I wouldn't compare it to another album, but I would say that within what's going on today in music, it's great to have some Wu-Tang energy injected into 2017. It's great that in this time I can turn to a great modern Wu-Tang album with modern verses talking about the concepts of what's happening today. Like when [Inspectah] Deck said, 'My price hikin' like the pills Martin Shkreli sells.' That's what I'm excited about--hearing our take on today's culture and putting them into our metaphors.

A lot of arguments can be made about the best MCs, and we're still doing that. But I've believed that Wu-Tang has the most unique sound in hip-hop.
RZA: I'm not going to be egotistical and say that Wu-Tang is the best. Even if I take that out, Wu is definitely unique. One lyric from Wu can spark an entire movie.

RZA, with Math overseeing the project, was it also a case of the teacher learning from the student?  
RZA: Oh definitely. Not only his talent of chopping up sounds or having bands to remake them but his idea to run them through the filter--the ASR--was genius. I'm like, 'Damn, why didn't I think to do that with A Better Tomorrow?' When I first heard the music, I was like ''Oh sh*t.' You get that spine-tingling in your back.

With Wu, there have been times where unexpected members stepped up on your tracks and make Wu even more interesting. For instance, U-God came through on Ghostface's "Black Jesus." Any surprises like that on this album?
RZA: You're right, with the Wu you never know. Even with Built Only Built 4 Cuban Linx. It's Rae's album, but Ghost came in like Joe Pesci on Goodfellas. This one, I think Meth came through. And I'm happy to hear the lyrical content that Meth is giving on this.

Some people were not happy with A Better Tomorrow, but when I discuss that album, I tell folks that you guys are grown men now, husbands and fathers.
RZA: Not just grown, but we're past that. In all reality, we could do that if we wanted to. But why do that? Because you're not living that. I'm going to front, every once in a while... I may say some ignorant sh*t. But to have to hear me rap about crack and guns, that means I haven't evolved. But to hear me say, 'If I put my fist through the face of a racist/Smack 'em tasteless/Would I face three cases in court, locked in places/Or shackled to a seat of a bus, a hundred of us/Life in America shouldn't be so tough,' that's what's going on.


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Music Sermon: The Groundbreaking Sprite and St. Ides Hip-Hop Campaigns

Today, rap music is used to sell everything from electronics to tax filing services to nut butter grinding machines at Whole Foods. We understand that hip-hop culture is essentially the root of everything cool and hip in culture, period, and it’s been commodified and appropriated within an inch of its life. But in the early ‘90s, the genre was far from Madison Avenue-friendly. Aside from the groundbreaking deal between Adidas and RUN DMC, brands didn’t yet see full value and impact of hip-hop…except in the food and beverage industry.

Beverage companies centering campaigns for the urban demo around black music was nothing new; Coca-Cola had ads featuring artists such as New Edition and Anita Baker singing their hearts out for the cola in the ‘80s, and Schlitz Malt Liquor had a legendary – and hilarious - run of spots featuring The Commodores, The Four Tops, Teddy Pendergrass and more through the ‘70s and early ‘80s. However, in the early ‘90s two brands put their entire business on hip-hop’s back, by not only building their brands but spring-boarding the recognition of the music and artists as a marketing and advertising tool: Sprite soda and St. Ides malt liquor.

In the ‘80s, Sprite was languishing behind competitor 7Up when parent company Coca-Cola decided to focus on the youth market, and the quickly growing hip-hop culture was part of the strategy. African-American ad agency Burrell Communications tagged hip-hop acts for a series of spots that began a long-standing marriage between the brand and the culture, starting with Kurtis Blow in 1986. It was one of the first national TV ads to feature a rapper.


In 1990, the brand kicked off the “I Like the Sprite in You” campaign, using rap acts that matched the soft drink’s bubbly energy, starting with Heavy D & the Boyz before partnering with Kid ’n Play the following year. The ads featured the artists clad in lemon-lime fare, rhymin’ about lymon.

HEAVY D - 1990 KID’N PLAY – 1991

With Kris Kross, they turned it up a notch and had us crunk inside the Sprite can. Edgy. Also, this was catchy as hell.


Then in 1994, a young brand manager from Clark Atlanta University named Darryl Cobbin had an idea for a new direction: Gen X was about authenticity and independence of thought, not following the hype. Sprite ditched the pop-friendly crossover acts and identified more “authentic” rap artists – lyricists with street and cultural cred – to rep the brand. “Lymon” was also out of the window, as they moved away from marketing taste and towards marketing attitude. (Cobbin later spearheaded the iconic, yet grammatically questionable, Boost Mobile “Where You At?” campaign.)

Gone were the bright yellow and green sets, because while the new slogan said, “Image is nothing,” it was all about image. Bright and shiny was traded for dark and gritty. Now we were in the studio; a fly on the wall for freestyle sessions. In the first spot of the series with Grand Puba and Large Professor, Puba closes with “First thing’s first, obey your thirst.” It’s legend even within Coca-Cola that Puba ad-libbed the phrase that then became the brand’s tagline that remains to this day.


The “Obey Your Thirst” spots also took us the street corner, the club, and inside the ring when Sprite resurrected the legendary KRS One vs. MC Shan battle.

KRS ONE & MC SHAN - 1996 NAS & AZ – 1997 THE LOST BOYS – 1997

By the late ‘90s Sprite had spent roughly $70M on the “Obey Your Thirst” campaign, tripled sales, and commanded a majority market share of the citrus category (which also included 7Up, Sierra Mist, and Mountain Dew).

Sprite had also succeeded in becoming an official and established part of the culture. They were family. The brand further expanded into urban youth culture through a partnership with the NBA, while continuing to evolve the creative of the rap campaigns.


Near the end of the decade, Sprite explored the overlap between hip-hop culture, comics and martial arts with a series of posse spots based on Voltron (representing all hip-hop regions) and the 5 Deadly Venoms (with all female emcees).


Over the years, Sprite has continued to be one of the most consistent brands in hip-hop. We’ve grown accustomed to spotting the logo everywhere from music festivals and shows to the background of BET’s hip-hop cyphers. They revitalized the “Obey Your Thirst” campaign with Drake in 2010 and paid homage to the greatest lyricists in rap with the “Obey Your Verse” campaign featuring iconic rappers and cans with classic lyrics in 2015.

SPRITE "Obey Your Verse - Cooler" (starring Rakim) from SHOUT IT OUT LOUD MUSIC on Vimeo.

St. Ides’ run with hip-hop doesn’t have the same happy ending as Sprite’s. The brand’s usage of rap petered out in the mid-90s after wide backlash and a series of lawsuits.

For St. Ides, hip-hop was the brand campaign. It’s how they built their business. The brand was introduced in 1987 and their rap campaigns launched in 1988. The malt liquor 40 oz., with significantly higher alcohol content than beer at around a $2 price point, was already a staple in lower-income neighborhoods and hip-hop culture. The “Crooked I” capitalized on that.

Parent company McKenzie River secured Ice Cube as their anchor spokesperson and tapped West Coast producer DJ Pooh to spearhead advertising creative. Pooh lined up a veritable who’s who of additional West Coast rappers over the years, including Geto Boys, Cypress Hill, Warren G, Snoop and Tupac; plus the thorough-est from the East, including Eric B and Rakim, Wu-Tang Clan, Biggie and EPMD.

EPMD & ICE CUBE - 1991 GETO BOYS & ICE CUBE – 1992 ERIC B & RAKIM - 1992

Unlike Sprite’s campaigns which were first jingles and still felt like commercials, even when elevated to trading hot bars for Obey Your Thirst. St. Ides spots, however, looked and felt like straight up music videos with album-worthy production and flow.

ICE CUBE – 1993 MC EIHT – 1994 NOTORIOUS B.I.G. – 1995

Complex even named Wu-Tang’s St. Ides spot “Shaolin Brew” as one of the collective’s 100 best songs! (But at least it’s ranked near the bottom; #97.)


In fact, in 1994, the brand did turn the hottest of the joints into an album, with the St. Ides promotional mixtape dropping at your neighborhood liquor store. It featured full-length songs about getting twisted off the malt liquor from Ice Cube, Wu-Tang Clan, Scarface, MC Eiht, Snoop Doggy Dogg, and Nate Dogg.

The Snoop and Nate track is low key a jam, still. Homegirl in the background starting at the 10-second mark is a whole mood.

This blatant marketing of malt liquor directly to black and brown youth wasn’t going to go unchecked indefinitely. It was all irresponsible, even while being genius for the demo. In 1991, the Wall Street Journal listed the St. Ides ad campaign among one of the worst of the year, which probably didn’t matter at the time since WSJ readers weren’t St. Ides’ base.

In 1991, Public Enemy released Apocalypse ’91: The Empire Strikes Back. The album featured “100 Bottle Bags,” a direct criticism against malt liquor companies marketing specifically to urban communities “…but they don’t sell that sh*t in the white neighborhoods.” Shortly after the release, St. Ides found itself in Chuck D’s crosshairs, and he fired the first in a series of big shots against the brand, marking the beginning of the end of their love affair with hip-hop. An 80-second radio spot featuring Cube used a sample of Chuck’s voice without his permission. The ad had already aired over 500 times on rap radio shows when Chuck sued St. Ides parent company McKenzie River for five million dollars (they settled out of court).

Then, St. Ides and McKenzie River fell under legal scrutiny from the New York State Attorney General in 1992 for using verbiage like Cube’s lyric “Get your girl in the mood quicker, make your jimmy thicker…St. Ides.” to suggest the malt liquor increased sexual prowess. Can you imagine the think pieces if that spot ran today?

They were later in hot water with the New York AG’s office again, along with the Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms and Tobacco (the ATF) for advertising perceived to the be targeted towards minors, with complaints that it glamorized gang affiliation and promoted sex. After having production completely shut down for a short while and getting hit with heavy fines, St. Ides tried to clean up its act, adding “drink responsibly” messaging into the spots.

By ’96 the run was over. Hip-hop was growing up, getting money and moving towards more sophisticated alcoholic beverage choices. Alizé and Hennessy, anyone?

The relationship between hip-hop and alcohol never ended, of course, but has continued to evolve to match the evolution of the lifestyle. We don’t go to the corner store no more, homie (save a brief return in the early aughts of Four Loko). We’re toasting to the good life with premium brands, some of which are now owned by the artists.

We can look back now with the wizened, woke eyes of maturity and possibly scrutinize our artists selling out at the expense of the community, but for the young and burgeoning hip-hop culture, both the St. Ides campaigns and the Sprite campaigns opened the door for the power and commodification of hip-hop and consumer brands. For better or for worse.

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J.Cole, Teyana Taylor And Other Snubs Of The 2019 Grammy Nominations

It's that time of year again when inner circles and strangers on the Internet debate who's up for a gramophone.

On Friday (Dec. 7), the nominees for 2019's Grammy Awards (Feb. 10) were announced to a span of hot takes, early but informed predictions, and a wall of confusion as to why certain artists were overlooked. While some entertainers excitedly received the good news (Cardi B discovered her nods while leaving a courthouse), others were left scratching their heads.

Here's a look at why those who were snubbed by the Recording Academy deserved to be nominated.

READ MORE: Drake, Kendrick Lamar, And Cardi B Lead 2019 Grammys Nominations


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Anderson .Paak, Tierra Whack And More Praise Female Artists At 2018 Billboard Women In Music

Some of music's biggest stars attended Billboard's annual Women in Music event on Thursday night (Dec. 6).

Pop star Ariana Grande was awarded with the night's highest honor, "Woman Of The Year," while SZA, Janelle Monae, Cyndi Lauper, Hayley Kiyoko, and Kacey Musgraves were awarded with subsequent prestigious honors.

VIBE got a chance to speak to some of the musicians in attendance on the carpet, including hip-hoppers Anderson .Paak and Tierra Whack, the Janelle Monae-cosigned St. Beauty, and Massah David, the co-founder of the creative agency, MVD Inc..

When prompted about some of their favorite bodies of work by female artists this year, a resounding amount of musicians stated Teyana Taylor's K.T.S.E and Tierra Whack's Whack World as some of their personal picks.

The 23-year-old MC and first-time Grammy nominee confirmed with VIBE she's working on "something really special" with fellow Philadelphian and friend Meek Mill. She also stated that while the accolades for her work have been exciting, she's more excited for society to stop gendering dope artists, especially in the hip-hop game.

"I hope that [labeling through gender] ends soon," she said. "I know, technically, rap is a male-dominated industry, but, like, I’m better than all of ‘em! [laughs] It is what it is! I don’t even count gender or color, it’s just whoever’s got it."

What are some members of the music industry looking forward to in 2019? More women in high-profile positions and more chances for women in general.

"Hopefully just having more opportunities for women in different spaces in music, whether it’s radio, behind-the-scenes, engineering, actually making the music," said David. "I’m just hoping we get to see women in more executive roles."

Watch our recap video above.

READ MORE: Janelle Monae Discusses Creative Freedom, Her Relationship With Diddy In New 'Billboard' Interview

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