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Courtesy of Emilio Rojas

Embracing The New: Emilio Rojas Reintroduces Himself To Music With 'Life Got In The Way'

Emilio Rojas chops it up with VIBE to discuss ‘Life Got In The Way’ (out Nov. 2), his re-introduction to music, the difficulties of being an independent artist and the current surge of Latino music over global airways.

Emilio Rojas is back on his grind. After taking a four-year hiatus from music, the Venezuelan-American rapper is ready to reintroduce himself to the rap game, sans bad vibes and negative energy. Abandoning New York after recording the entirety of what has become his upcoming album, the Rochester native set out for Los Angeles to reflect on the rocky path his career was beginning to take.

Initially driven by bad management and a lack of synergy, Rojas was able to strike a chord of creativity in La La Land—despite discovering a general distaste for In-N-Out and the facade of North Hollywood clout. Using the time to clear his mind, realign his vision and create new content, Rojas is itching for new and existing fans to listen to his long-awaited project, Life Got In The Way.

Circling back to NYC to sit down with VIBE and discuss the making of his new album (out Nov. 2), his re-introduction to music, the difficulties of being an independent artist and the current surge of Latino music over global airways, Rojas is in his element. Comfortably kickin’ it in the building’s artist lounge, the 34-year-old rapper is confident in who he is and what he’s become. Both laid back and extremely attentive, Emilio Rojas speaks with conviction and new sense of clarity–music is his outlet. As someone who has lived his life walking the line between his Latino heritage and white background, Rojas uses rap to beat the system. A proverbial martyr for those who have been hushed, Emilio Rojas needs the world to know that the vexed question of whether or not it’s cool to be cultured no longer applies.

“Even with this resurgence of Latin culture, my voice is still unique because I talk about the assimilation,” he says. “Nobody is speaking for that.”

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VIBE: You’ve uprooted from your New York Home to L.A. Why did you move out?
Emilio Rojas: Because I felt like there was a lot of like weird energy I just needed to change. I'm a big energy person. There's no stones in my pockets, no crystals, but that's where I draw the line. Up until then, it's energy all day.

I feel like L.A. has super chill vibes, though.
Kinda. I feel like it's fake. I feel like every interaction you have, for the most part in L.A. is evaluating if you're of some utility to them. So it’s like, “what kind of following do you have?” Then you're thinking, alright well how many followers do I need to have to be your friend.

That shouldn't matter.
But that's the corny sh*t. That's the type of sh*t they're on so that's why I don't f**k with L.A. I mean, I f**k with L.A, but it's not the people from L.A., don't get it twisted, it's like the transplants. It's like somebody from Pennsyltucky come and like he was like the biggest person in Iowa and then comes and like moves to North Hollywood and like thinks he has to be a certain way.

 

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LIFE GOT IN THE WAY TOMORROW AT MIDNIGHT‼️‼️‼️I’m SOOOOOO Hype!!!!! Can’t wait for y’all to hear this!!!!

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Do you record in L.A.?
Yeah. I like recording there, the creative culture out there is amazing. There's so many different people doing so many cool things, like everybody wants to create content, right? Content is the word of the day, but everybody's into it, people are very collaborative, the energy is usually good so like I love that.

Let’s talk about your project, Life Got In The Way. It's definitely been a long time coming.
Thanks, we've been working.

Is this music you've been sitting on for a while?
Yeah. I don't wanna call it my album, it's a project that I have that I wanna give to people, you know what I mean? I feel like it's important to distinguish.

I mean, it's the first time since your L.I.F.E. EP in 2015, right?
Yeah.

Would you say it's showing a lot of growth or chronicling your experiences since then?
Oh yeah, there's a lot of growth ‘cause I needed to explain some sh*t to people. I felt like I had to make certain records just to kinda button up the story really nicely. I feel like back then there were two Emilios. For one, you had this Emilio who was being pressured to create what they were calling “competitive and urgent records.” I had a lot of external pressure from people like, "yo we need a record for mix show," "we need a record for radio" and sh*t. Really I'm an artist who likes to say sh*t, so when you put me in this situation where you're pressuring me to create some sh*t, I'm way out of my comfort zone. You really just have to let me stumble on a record. I feel like anyone who just goes out deliberately to do anything is gonna sound contrived. I feel like there was that side and then the side that people love me for, which is like when I'm saying sh*t to really be my authentic self. So to present that to my audience and to really grow the way I wanted to grow, I felt like I had to f**king throw that mix-show-pressure Emilio out and just be regular Emilio, talk about what I wanna talk about and not let anybody else influence my creative process. I don't need yes men around me, I'm very open to constructive criticism, but I want people who understand the vision and there was a lack of that. That's why I moved to L.A., that's what this project is, and that’s what I wanna do.

I noticed that you're always sharpening your pencil and your craft through freestyles of popular songs. Is that what you were doing throughout your hiatus?
I was just bored and I was like "we're about to start this rollout and there's always pressure,” so I'm kind of looking at this like a re-emergence, like I'm starting again. What I wanted to do was re-engage fans that have been there for a minute and just remind them like "alright I know I've been quiet for like a good f**king minute, but like I'm still dead nice."

Oh so it’s like your reintroduction to music.
Yeah, I'm looking at it like a promo single—this whole project.

If you had to re-introduce yourself in a short a few sentences, what would you say?
I'm Emilio Rojas and I'm at war with love and at odds with the system. I'm always in conflict. Like it's perpetually conflict, whether it's in my personal life, my relationships, my own identity, or what's going on in the world.

"There are some very influential people who at multiple different times in my career told me to either A, stop going by my real name and use my 'passable whiteness' or B, just tone down the Latin sh*t as a whole." —Emilio Rojas

You've been dropping a lot of music videos to lead this new release. What are you most excited for fans to hear?
I'm most excited for fans to hear "New To New York" off this project. I'm from Rochester and I moved to New York City like "once I get there I'm gon' get it" and that's what the record is about. It's about leaving where you're comfortable and where you're from and going somewhere else and like thinking that it's gonna change your life and obviously it but the hope is that it's for the better. It's about like having lofty goals and then the reality. There's like a dope switch and we got a crazy video for it. I'm excited about it.

As far as your goals, where do you aspire to be?
I don't have an end-goal. I wake up in the morning, I talk to my mom, I go to the gym, I go to the studio. Life is good, you know? I want to make records that will last longer than like a blog post and I know everything is so quick right now but I wanna make things that, you know, the people that relate to them can keep going back to.

I feel like the themes in your music can definitely contribute to longevity.
You hear sh*t that's fun and you love it forever, too, and I'm not saying I don't want to make fun music, but I also feel like my fans get mad at me when I talk about things that aren't super serious. Like damn, y'all want me to be f**king miserable? [Laughs]

 

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Out here in new yorkkkkk let’s gooooo #lifegotintheway Nov. 2

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It seems like you release a lot of your emotions in your music, do you have any other outlets for that, or would you say you leave it all in the music?
That's an interesting question. I mean music has always been cathartic. It's funny because I've been criticized for that in relationships. My girl at the time told me that I didn't talk—and I don't. I'm a very pensive and observant person, I'd much rather look at a room than participate in it and I think a lot of times it comes across as arrogant or aloof, but it's really just that I have a general distrust for most situations just because of my experience. I think my music is like a moment where I allow myself to be vulnerable. I'm glad I have it because I don't know what else I do to let things out.

Your "Crown Of Thorns" video has a huge boxing theme. Do you box?
I used to try, but I don't have that killer instinct. I love boxing though, I love boxing.

Your album is executively produced by !llmind, that's huge!
That's my boy since he rapped!

For real? I was gonna say how did that happen? I know he's worked with like Drake, J. Cole and the list goes on.
I worked with him first.

Really?
No, no, no. [Laughs] !llmind is my guy. I've known him for so long, we have such a history together. He's a genuine person, he's super talented, and we've been talking about doing this record for a long time. Actually, it's funny cause right before Joell [Ortiz] and him did the "Human" record, we started working on this. I finished it, I put it away and then I went to L.A. and I just kept working on music, but I was like "no, I gotta put this sh*t out, ‘cause it's dope."

I was watching a video where you guys were talking about the music and it seemed like you guys were really good at collaborating.
Yeah, he has such a good energy. I don't like to force sh*t. A lot of times people will ask you like "yo, what's your dream collab" and I'm like, "I don't give a f**k, I'm not chasing anybody." If it makes sense then that's what's supposed to happen. I just feel like there's so much pressure ‘cause the industry is all about relationships. It's like "oh, you're not cool unless you f**k with so and so" but I'm not trying to play that game, I just wanna make dope sh*t.

People try to force features with artists that are hot and you can hear it in the tracks, but you have your boys on your album, right?
Yeah. Even if my boys had no fans, if you're dope and we make a dope record, I’ma put that sh*t out. Everybody started with nothing, so it's foolish—I think it's short-sided to only deal with people who are hot for the moment.

It's called clout chasing.
It's how you become a trash person.

The credentials for "Crown Of Thorns" say you shot, directed and edited the video. Are you into videography?
We lost the footage for the original video.

How?
I don't f**king know.

I mean it was over a year ago.
Yeah so we lost it and I was like "f**k, we need a video for this," ‘cause it was like the first video. I didn't know I put that in the credits, I should delete that, I don't want people to know that.

Why? It's dope that you're involved in all parts of the creative process.
Because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. [Laughs] I YouTube tutorialed everything. But yeah it's fun, it was actually dope cause now when he's shooting a video I could be like "nah man, let's do flash cut here" ‘cause I went to YouTube and now I know all these terms.

You can flex a little.
[Laughs] I'm an expert now.

"I want to make records that will last longer than like a blog post." —Emilio Rojas

Even with your music video for "The Cost" you were posting about how you were really feeling the Quentin Tarantino vibes of it, so I was really thinking that you were out here putting a lot of thought into your music videos.
I do but as an independent artist, you always wanna do these crazy f**king videos, right? But crazy f**king videos cost a crazy f**king amount of money. I really would like to do some crazy Quentin Tarantino sh*t, but instead we do like cool Quentin Tarantino sh*t, but I'm still proud cause it's like yo we did this on our own! We shoestring budgeted this sh*t and it still looks fly.

I thought it looked good.
Yeah I'm happy with it, I love it. You can make a lot of things happen just off of good old-fashioned can-do-it-ness—I made up that word but you can just make sh*t happen if you work and pull resources. I'm blessed to have fans that are supportive and friends that are supportive and everybody is willing to lend a hand and help me facilitate things, which makes a $2,000 look like $5,000.

Aside from "New To New York" do you have any other videos coming out?
We shot this video for a record called "20 Bands" which is dope, it's like a tattoo record. It's a little more ratchet—a lot of rap hands. I'm sitting on maybe 80 records besides this project so what I'm gonna do once we finish rolling this record out with !llmind is I'm gonna start dropping weekly and bi-weekly content. Probably a video a month.

You’re most excited for fans to hear "New To New York" but what record was most important to you?
"The Cost." I love that record because I was so beautifully passive aggressive in the moments that I created it. I was dating this amazing, beautiful, crazy girl from Queens and we lived together and she was getting jealous because I was about to go on tour. You know, when you're jealous and your boyfriend is an artist who's about to go on tour, the first thing you think of is "you're gonna be f**king bi**hes on tour!" So, you know, she's throwing plates, she's going to la bruja and sh*t and getting spells cast and I'm walking in the apartment and there's bowls of water in the corner and sh*t. We ended up breaking up right before I left for tour and this is two days before and she's in the room packing her sh*t and !llmind sent me this beat. At first I just put it on and just started writing just so she could hear me. I had no intention of putting the record out or anything, but then the sh*t turned out really dope. My boy Gene [Nobel] did the hook and I really like the record, it's like one of my favorite records. I just think it's so relatable, especially if you've ever been in a relationship that you just don't wanna let go of or just comes at a price, you know? For me to be in that relationship I would have had to sacrifice so much and that's why it's called the cost.

There's been a huge Latino dent in the charts lately. How do you feel about that?
We went through the fire. We were all told that it wasn't cool, we were told to tone it down. I literally just had this conversation, so I'm glad I'm getting asked it because people need to be held accountable and I wish I was brave enough and big enough to name drop, but I'm not. There are some very key players and some very influential people who at multiple different times in my career told me to either A, stop going by my real name and use my "passable whiteness" or B, just tone down the Latin sh*t as a whole. I've had major DJs at major radio stations tell me that they don't like to use my name on air because they feel like they're introducing a salsa artist and these are Latinos who are telling me this and they DJ in a city whose largest listening demographic is Hispanic. I've had major tastemakers, bloggers and influencers tell me to stop using Latin references—and I'm not even super OD with that sh*t—because they don't relate... meanwhile they're from f**king Nicaragua or some sh*t. Now those same people are literally scrambling to hop on the wave.

I've had those same people wonder, "why haven't you ever used a Latin angle?" Let me answer in Spanish: ¿qué? Like, what? What do you mean a Latin angle, like y'all sh*t on us for years? I had managers tell me! Like I got a song on one of the records where I'm like, "Management said can it with that Hispanic sh*t/ But mira mira motherf**ker" like that's what I am, you know? I don't ever claim to be something I'm not. My father is an immigrant from Venezuela, my mother is from New York, I grew up walking the line and that's all I ever talk about, I never claim one side more than the other and I think that's a voice that's just been muted, even now. Even with this resurgence of Latin culture, my voice is still unique because I talk about the assimilation. Like I'm a first generation child of an immigrant who's trying to identify with the Latin side as well as the white side and nobody is speaking for that.

I hear you.
How many kids are like us and who's speaking for us? Even now, there's still nobody. It's like this is a conversation that is echoed. This sh*t haunts me! I have this conversation all the time and there's definitely a void and there's a whole group of people just wanting to be addressed. We're a huge f**king group of people who are routinely marginalized and I wanna change that, even if I'm not the only voice—I hope I'm not the only voice. It's amazing to see Cardi and Bad Bunny and Ozuna and J. Balvin and all these people blowing up because we have such a rich culture and it's great the world gets to experience it but we went through it.

Can we expect any bilingual songs on Life Got In The Way?
No, because this is a little bit older. There might be some references, but when I was working on this record I was still very much in "tone it down" mode because I foolishly bucked to external pressures when it came to that. I like to talk about my experiences, but I was overthinking alienating a whole other audience. I do have a record that talks about it, though. It's called "Tainted" and it's already out, but it's dope. It talks about the duality, the struggle, how you're not enough for either side, and how both sides ostracize you because of that.

READ MORE: Premiere: Emilio Rojas, Jarren Benton & Rexx Life Raj Team Up For “Used To”

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J.Lo’s ‘World of Dance’ Proves To Be A World of Opportunity

For two years, Jennifer Lopez, Ne-Yo, and Derek Hough have introduced some of the world’s best dancers to viewers across America. Their NBC weekly competition series, World Of Dance, fills living room television sets with high-flying stunts and out-of-this-world routines. The show’s multicultural acts each bring a distinct flavor to their every step, tracing back to their native homelands.

Now in its third season, the dance tournament is divided into various categories befit for each act’s demographic. The brackets are divided into levels: Upper, Junior, Upper Team, and Junior Team and they’re all in the race for a hefty $1 million. Yet with all that talent in one room, you can bet the competition is stiff. It’s also nerve-wracking trying to impress superstars like Lopez, Ne-Yo, and Hough for a qualifying score.

There’s The Kings, a group from India that flies across the stage in lightning bolt speed. Their precision is just as massive as their dash, everything is carefully coordinated into perfection. Then there’s The Heima from Seoul, South Korea that offers an incredible fusion of Asian culture paired with beautiful choreography.

Surprisingly, if J.Lo would’ve had the chance to compete in a show like her own at the beginning of her career in the early ‘90s, she admits she would’ve passed on it.

“If I was on In Living Color, I probably wouldn’t try out for World Of Dance,” she says seated on a leather couch at a private party room at Los Angeles’ NeueHouse Hollywood. “I probably would more be watching World of Dance and cheering on my friends. The level of tricks and technical skills is not something that I had when I was coming up. Even though I know my flips and tricks just a little bit, I’m in awe of what they are able to do.”

It’s also exciting to learn from the contestants, some of which she says end up working with her after the show is over.

“I’m from The Bronx. I’m a hip-hop girl at heart so I’m always looking at what the young kids are doing, and trying to do that too,” she notes.  “Let’s get some young kids here so they could teach us the new steps.”

While the new generation of dancers are exciting, it also isn’t taken lightly by the judges—especially for Ne-Yo. The award-winning R&B artist is known for his tough criticism, and he isn’t generous when it comes to scoring. His methodology is earnest yet simple: show and prove.

“If I’m going to give you a million dollars you’re going to earn it,” the 39-year-old says flatly. “Whether you’re an eight-year-old or a 38-year-old, your skill level is what makes me go, ‘I’m going to talk to you like a person who wants a million dollars from me.’ It is what it is.”

Hough adds that the judges often disagree when it comes to scoring.

“We’ve had full-blown arguments after a performance where we’re behind the desk and I just straight-out disagree with some of their things, and with their opinions,” he told Entertainment Weekly. “But that’s what makes us judges. We’re going to have different opinions, and we’re going to have conflicting ideas. I think ’cause we’re so passionate about it, we’re so invested, and we love dance. We’re all fans of dance, and we want to make this the best we can possibly make it.”

Amid Ne-Yo’s tough rubric, there’s no denying that working alongside Lopez has a positive effect on his work ethic.

“J.Lo is over here killing the game,” he says. “It makes you go up because she’s the ultimate. She comes in sharp, alert, charismatic, every single time,” despite having a million other things to do the second the show is done taping.

World Of Dance is something Lopez also enjoys with her family. She watches it with her children and says her son Max wants a chance to compete to win the million dollars. “They love the show and they love the electricity of the show. It’s powerful, it’s young, it’s fun,” J.lo says.

What gives the show its power is the exposure that it grants contestants whether or not they win the grand prize. “Getting on that stage in itself is a victory,” Ne-Yo says. “You’re in people’s houses every week. If you can’t parlay that into something whether you win a million dollars or not, you’re not hustling right.”

World Of Dance airs on Sundays at 8 p.m. EST on NBC.

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Courtesy of Rialto Pictures

The Ying and Yang of ‘Yardie’ Star Aml Ameen

There’s a scar above Aml Ameen’s right eyebrow that he got when he was three years old. Thirty years later, the British actor can laugh at running face first so ferociously he split his head open. The victim he was charging at, his cousin, walked away without a scratch.

Cracking himself open is what Ameen did in order to embody the role of D, the lead in Idris Elba’s directorial debut Yardie. Adapted into a screenplay from the 1992 Victor Headley novel of the same name, viewers see Ameen take on a character who’s more morally ambidextrous than he is ethically ambiguous. The film spans two decades and locations—Jamaica and London—as D grapples with his brother’s murder and enacting revenge while diving deeper into a treacherous drug world.

To become a true yardie, Ameen who’s British-Jamaican and Vincentian, went full method acting. After living in Bob Marley’s homeland for three months, when Ameen returned to London, friends, family or whoever met him anew.

“People met me as D, they met me as the part. The mindset, I was only speaking patois. All the cast and crew met me as D. And so, by the time I came back I had gotten out of my own way to a large degree in terms of any trepidation I might have,” he says. “When you immerse yourself fully into a world and you give over to a part often you start by feeling like you’re faking it. But after a while, your body doesn’t know you’re telling it something. It just starts to believe it. So let’s just say you’re telling yourself every morning ‘I’m ugly! I’m ugly! I’m ugly!’ Your body will start feeling that. It can be a bit traumatic, but you don’t have to do as much work. So that foundation of playing D gave me a lot of confidence.”

Ameen isn’t unattractive. In fact, he’s handsome. Standing a hair above 5’6” his tall personality supersedes his actual height. His toasted almond skin is clear. His lips full. He smiles often but there’s a resting smirk that gives way to slight mischief or an undetected superpower. It could be his ability to transform to a spliff smoking badmon, or maybe it’s the courage he mustered the night before this interview to perform at New York’s famed Nuyorican Poetry Cafe. Either way, something’s there.

D and Ameen however, couldn’t be any more different. Ameen is measured, deliberate with his words and tidy. His Ray-Ban sunglasses accent his blue striped button-down and his tan wool coat. D is unpredictable, shaggy; his locs an orchestra of controlled chaos. D also isn’t opposed to shooting first and to channel his character’s demeanor, Ameen channeled his Uncle Kirk.

“My Uncle Kirk is one of them stoic, handsome, men from his time in the 80s. There are loads of pictures I have of him and he’s just one of them men who didn’t really smile but when he smiled it was like is he smiling because he’s happy with what you’re saying or not?” he says. “I’ve got a lot of British in me and we tend to be polite by default. You see Jamaicans, they’ll look you in your eye and talk to you like this [with a straight face] for all of the interview and it’s fine with them. There’s an intensity.”

As a first-generation Jamaican, I can attest to the seriousness that runs through the island. Despite the sun, the rum and the savory oxtail gravy, Jamaicans don’t joke around, or as we say: we nuh romp.

Serendipity was at play when Ameen and Elba first met in an elevator both heading to the same Los Angeles-bound flight. They discussed the book and Elba’s script. Ameen’s verbiage of choice is “sanitized” when describing the difference in the brutality of D on screen compared to the novel. Over time, the young rebel develops a coke habit and to bait Clancy, his brother’s killer, D rapes the mother of his children. In the movie, however, after breaking into their home and points a gun at Clancy’s girlfriend, D grants privacy when she pretends to breastfeed her child.

And while D doesn’t explicitly say it, he has a death wish. If you watch the film properly as Ameen suggests, you can see moments in which D is chasing after his own demise. Ameen’s only desire is to live his life fully, a reality he better understands isn’t a luxury afforded to many.

“I’ve experienced people who died who were my age, and not died from like the usual gangs or that sort, but like a heart attack, 33 years old, dead. Another friend pushed off a balcony by his girlfriend. Uncle died three days ago, my dad’s brother,” Ameen says. “When my two bredins died, it was a certain feeling, but with my uncle dying I had more of an understanding of D’s journey, which I had to imagine now, than 18 months two years ago during filming. It’s very hard to fill the void of a family member dying. You never know when your card is going to get pulled, so you want enough time to do stuff, but at the same time once real people die in your life that you love you fear it less.”

D also never worked with The Sexiest Man Alive. Ameen describes Elba’s directorial hand as less controlling and more freeing. Elba would later invite Ameen to his home while filming The Mountain Between Us where the two shaped the character. Once the two-time Golden Globe winner yelled “action!” Ameen said he was granted the autonomy to do what he wanted.

“[Elba] wanted me to method act and we discussed the general mindset of D, the look that he wanted to achieve. He wanted a uniform accent, things like that. And then he just set those parameters and left me to go in and do it,” he says. “He knows the type of actor I am. He wasn’t like, ‘All right, this is how I want you to do it.’ I’ve worked with first-time directors before. I never worked with an actor-director and he gave a lot of space. There were only so many moments when he was like, ‘This is what I want’ and he allowed me to create this world where I lived.”

While going full method was the approach that made for the best performance, it wasn’t always easy for some on set. Ameen rarely broke character and admittedly held others “hostage to his process.” He was so intrinsically D, it took him roughly eight months to let go of him once the film wrapped.

“Not like talking patois all the time, but the state of being. Every morning as D I’m waking up to gunshots as my alarm clock. Every morning I’m sitting in bed for an hour or two imagining the murder of my brother. If you’re a person with a conscious, that’ll run on your mind. It took me a while, definitely.”

I forget my follow up question and the room gets quiet. We’ve been talking for close to 40 minutes. Ameen uses this chance to turn the tables and question me. We discuss zodiac signs and Miles Davis. There’s a younger version of the late jazz legend Ameen believes is equally complex and intriguing. He admits he’d love to portray him. Instead, he’ll have to settle for Netflix’s forthcoming Inside Man 2, a departure from the Spike Lee-directed crime-drama which starred Clive Owen and Denzel Washington.

“Those are some big shoes to fill,” I tell him.

“I ain’t tryna fill em. That’s the goat,” Ameen says of Washington as he chuckles. “I could be the ram if they want. I can be the little lamb.”

He opens his Spotify app and plays “Blue In Green.”

“What’s your star sign?” he questions.

Every man I’ve ever loved (whether reciprocal or not) is a Leo, so when I learned of his July 30th birthday, I was...annoyed.

VIBE: We don’t get along.

Ameen: Who don’t?

VIBE: We don’t.

Ameen: Why do you say that?

VIBE: I looked it up. We don’t get along.

Ameen: Is that the attitude you came to the interview with? That’s terrible. What’s your sign?

VIBE: I’m a Gemini. I find Leo men are, it’s almost astonishing, how confident they are, and like unjustifiably so sometimes.

Ameen: And that’s what I remind you of?

He takes a sip of water and leans back. He crosses his legs and continues to listen to Miles while scrolling through social media on his phone. A smile emerges on his face. Like his Uncle Kirk, I’m not sure if he’s smiling because he finds our banter fun and playful, or if his unknown superpower is bubbling at the surface.

“Interesting,” Ameen says.

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American musician Millie Jackson performs onstage at the Park West Auditorium, Chicago, Illinois, May 30, 1980.
Photo by Paul Natkin

Music Sermon: Millie Jackson - The Original Bad Girl

You know that auntie who you were nervous to bring your young male friends around back in the day because she might proposition them in the kitchen when nobody was looking? Or the auntie liable to cuss out a family member or two after dinner for something that happened 12 years ago? The one that women in your family whispered about, warning not to leave men around alone? Who your mama didn’t want you to spend too much time with, but you were always excited to see because she was entertaining and was gonna slip you a little pocket change?

That auntie listens to Millie Jackson.

Millie Jackson is not just an R&B singer. She’s a Rhythm & Blues singer. She’s card party music. Your parents having people over and you’re not allowed to come downstairs music. Working class black folks hanging out down at the VFW after a long week with some well liquor music.

She’s been called “the queen of raunchy soul” and “the Godmother of rap,” because of her signature, no-holds-barred lyrical content and her long “raps” – profanity-laced, sexually explicit stories and jokes – interwoven through her songs and live sets. Auntie Millie is part singer and part outrageous comedienne – but don’t take her as a joke. She’s a deceptively serious artist, with career highlights that went largely unnoticed because of the raunch.

In our continued celebration of bad-ass women in music for the month of March, we present 11 essential Auntie Millie facts.

1. Her Singing Career Was an Accident

One Thursday night, Millie Jackson was hanging with friends at the Psalms Café on 125th Street in Harlem. The restaurant hosted an open mic on Thursdays, and Millie was clowning a young woman for her terrible singing. Her friends bet her $5 to get up herself and sing, and she did it – even though she had no training as a singer. A club promoter in the audience offered her a gig the following week, someone saw her there and offered her more gigs, and that continued. She sung around New York and New Jersey for a couple of years while still working full time, and eventually landed a spot touring with Sam Cooke’s brother, LC. After one short-lived recording contract, she signed with funk and soul label Spring Records (co-founded by the father and uncle of Loud Records founder Steve Rifkind). She was so unsure her career would stick, she asked for a leave of absence from her job instead of quitting. It became an extremely extended leave.

Her trademark “rapping,” the long intros, interludes and dialogue breaks Millie masterfully blends into her songs and live sets, was also an accident. Millie had no formal vocal training, so she wasn’t a strong singer at the beginning of her career. When people in supper clubs and lounges would start talking to each other and turning their attention away from the performance, she started talking to them to keep them engaged. It became a key part of her artistry. Millie doesn’t just sing you a song, she tells you a story.

2. She Developed Her Raw and Raunchy Style Because of Gladys Knight

Millie and Gladys sound alike. It’s hard to hear in Jackson’s grittier songs; in those, she sounds more like Teddy Pendergrass’s voice and Tina Turner’s voice had a vocal baby. In her ballads, though, you can close your eyes and imagine Gladys. Or at least Gladys after some brown liquor. Comparisons started almost immediately in Millie’s career. It was potentially a problem– the label held back a single because they thought people would hear it and ask for a new Gladys album – so she began to separate herself from Knight with her raw sound and lyrical content.

Over time, that separation also included cursing. “Gladys started rappin’ on (“Help Me Make It Through the Night”) and I’m like ‘Ok, now she’s gonna rap? I guess I’ll just cuss,’” Millie once explained. “She’s too much of a lady to curse.”

Jackson leaned all the way into the explicit language and topics - the Washington Post called her “a veteran virtuoso of vulgarity” in 1986 - until those two factors nearly overshadowed not only her raw talent, but the fact that her songs were also technically fantastic, complete with incredible arrangements and expert live instrumentation provided by the Muscle Shoals Swampers, one of the best rhythm sections in music history.

3. She Flipped the Concept of the Concept Album

Caught Up is the concept album "Trapped in the Closet" wanted to be when it grew up.

While Curtis Mayfield and Marvin Gaye were creating cohesive bodies of work that reflected community, racial and environmental turmoil, Millie focused on what was happening in the home. Spring Records paired the singer with producer Brad Shapiro, whose credits include Wilson Pickett and James Brown, and he took her to the famed Muscle Shoals to record with the studio’s legendary session musicians, the Swampers.

Millie knew she wanted to make an album where “one song keeps going into the next song,” like a long story. Caught Up is a narrative about an affair, but from two perspectives: the first half of the album is from the mistresses point of view, the second half is the wife’s.

“We knew we were onto something (after “If Loving You Is Wrong”),” Jackson explained in an interview. “Then somebody in the studio asked ‘what now?’ And I said, ‘we finish the story. We’ve heard from the girlfriend, but what about the wife?'”

Concept albums were still new, and Spring Records didn’t know what to do with a project featuring nine-minute songs and no clear radio tracks. They brought in one of the most influential black radio DJs in New York, WBLS’s Frankie Crocker, and played it for him. He left the label with the only pressed copy of the LP so he could play “If Loving You Is Wrong I Don’t Want to be Right” immediately.

Jackson has admitted to being the other woman multiple times in her own life, but wanted the representation on the album to be “fair,” and include the wife’s experience. Her interpretation of the betrayed wife wasn’t a broken-down woman crying into a pillow, either. The songs cycled through a full range of emotions, from shock and anger to sadness, defeat, defiance and pettiness.

The label’s skepticism was unfounded; Caught Up reached No. 4 on the Billboard R&B album chart and No. 21 on the Pop chart. The success prompted a follow-up album, Still Caught Up, but the original is considered Jackson’s definitive work.

4. She Helped Turn Cheating Into an R&B Genre

Torrid affairs and adultery weren’t new topics in music, but they were relatively new to R&B. In the early ‘70s, songs about cheating – not about the aftermath, but basically celebrating cheating - were mostly found in juke joint blues and country western music, and were rarely from the woman’s perspective. “These were conversations that women had with each other on the laundromat. You didn’t hear them on records,” Millie explained in a recent interview about Caught Up. “You especially didn’t hear them on the radio.” Billy Paul, Luke Ingram, Johnny Taylor, and Millie – all singers who straddled the line between blues and soul - helped change that. By the mid-70s, adultery R&B was a full-blown subgenre, with songs like “Woman to Woman” and “From His Woman to You” (because “Woman to Woman” apparently required a reply), then later came “As We Lay,” “Secret Lovers,” and a long list of others. Songs about the wife calling the side, the side responding to the wife (the temerity!), the husband talking to the side, the wife proclaiming love to her side. It was a mess. But the songs were hits, so you might need to ask your parents and grandparents some honest questions about exactly what the hell was going on in the ‘70s and early ‘80s.

Millie’s unfiltered and uncensored take on cheating was the centerpiece of her career. “(Infidelity is) my whole repertoire,” she explained once when asked about crafting the stories for her songs. “Do you decide whether or not you want to talk about a certain part of an infidelity? Is it a man? Is it a woman? Is it both of them? Or do you want to go and start talking about what infidelity calls to life, or how it ruins a relationship, and not pertaining to anybody in particular. But, see, just like that you can write 25 songs on infidelity.”

5. Millie Was a Women’s Advocate

The primary topic of Millie’s music, after infidelity, was sex. Not making love. Sex. As in, “you got to handle this.” Like infidelity, sexual demands from the woman’s point of view was topical fare for dirty blues, not R&B.

Don’t start something you can’t finish Frustration ain’t no fun Half way lovin’ just don’t get it Stay there ‘til the job is done.

I would be remiss to not point out the breakdown in “All the Way Lover,” wherein Auntie Millie plants seeds that bore fruit for future generations, advocating for enthusiastic participation in oral sex, or what she called “parteè.”

We thank you for your service and advocacy, Millie.

With the songs hitting close to home about husbands cheating, wives kicking those husbands out, side chicks getting fed up, and calling men out to get focused in the bedroom, Millie believed she turned the male demographic off. “Men did not want my records in their house,” she claimed in an interview. “They wouldn’t come to see me live. Because I spoke truth to women, I got a reputation for being rough on men.”

But Miss Jackson would get at women sometimes, too. She took time, often, in her live show to address “saditty b**ches” who were being too lazy or too uptight to take care of business at home. This was also a form of advocacy, though, in the form of “Sis, stop bullsh*ttin.’”

Millie was a new kind of voice for women’s independence and agency. “Women loved it. I was speaking to them,” Jackson explained to her hometown Atlanta Magazine. But she was talking to women in a way some didn’t consider proper or respectable. She didn’t care. “I didn’t sell record to bougies. It was the poor people who bought my music. The women who bought Diana Ross did not buy Millie Jackson. The people in the projects understood me. I was down and dirty. I told you like it was.”

She once compared men to bad credit, which I’m laughing about even as I type this because it’s so genius and perfect that I can’t even. It’s an analogy all women understand too well – and we also understand the plot twist on the end when she gives it up anyway (Kanye shrug). She kept it real.

6. Low Key, She’s a Hip-Hop OG

Millie had already established a reputation for her “rapping,” which in the ‘70s meant long dialogue during song breaks, a style made popular in soul music with Isaac Hayes. Millie expanded the technique, telling full narratives that connected her songs. After “Rapper’s Delight” became a hit, her label wanted her to give the new style of rap a shot. In 1980, she recorded a track called “I Had to Say It” that she meant as a spoof of “Rapper’s Delight,” but she was spitting bars on the low. The subject: black men who start dating white women once they’re successful. It would set the timeline on fire today.

She told Song Facts in a frank 2010 interview that the song’s inspiration came unexpectedly. “I was thinking of what the next album (was) gonna be, and I had run out of things to talk about,” she shared, “So we’re on the tour bus and I’m going through Jet Magazine, and I’m saying ‘Okay. There’s Arthur Ashe – with a white woman. There’s the guy that plays Shaft on TV with a white woman. Damn, there’s O.J. Simpson – with a white woman… Somebody needs to say this. Why don’t I say this? I have to say this.” And she said it with her signature IDGAF delivery and candor.

Now I got your attention again I wanna speak to you about white girls On the arms of our black men

Millie was just playing around, but Coca Cola explained to her, when they reached out for Sprite's 1999 Obey Your Thirst campaign, that she technically held the distinction of being the first woman to cut a rap song. The campaign, “5 Deadly Women,” featured rappers Eve, Amil, Angie Martinez (remember when Angie was a rapper?), Mia X and Roxanne Shante.

Jackson makes a surprise appearance at the end of the series as The Master, and I applaud Sprite for doing their homework and including her. She was kind of an easter egg, because not many people in the spot’s target audience knew who she was on sight.

Her hipping and hopping on “I Had To Say It” aside, Millie’s been credited as the foremother of Salt-n-Pepa, Lil’ Kim, Foxy Brown, and all female rappers who didn’t take no sh*t from the boys and unabashedly harnessed the power of sexuality in their music. She’s also been heavily sampled in hip-hop for decades: J. Cole, Prodigy, EPMD, Too Short, Poor Righteous Teachers, 50 Cent, Memphis Bleek, Lil’ B, Boogie Down Productions, Young Jeezy, Trick Daddy, Blacksheep, Cam’ron, Geto Boys, Yo Gotti, and Fat Joe have all cut Millie a publishing check.

At least three rap acts have sampled/covered her “Phuck You Symphony” alone, which I understand because it’s perfect for hip-hop – just like she is.

7. Her Live Show is Off the Chain

Millie doesn’t just give you a stage with a spotlight and some crooning (and I say “doesn’t” because Auntie still performs). No ma’am, no sir. There’s a full band, including a tight ass horn section, background singers, the whole nine. Also, she doesn’t just sing, it’s part comedy act. She’s a cross between Richard Pryor and popular ‘90s comedian Adele Givens (I truly believe Adele studied Millie).

Millie Jackson’s Live and Outrageous album is essential listening. The show’s energy is palpable even through audio. At her peak, Jackson’s concerts were regularly sold-out. She served costumes, flair, choreography, dramatics, and powerful vocals. Even as her stage show scaled down in later years, Millie Jackson live was no less of an experience. She’s also known for audience participation - if you’re sitting in her line of sight you might become part of the show. Be ready.

8. She’s a Boss

Millie Jackson is absolutely not a contrived artist. Her image is all hers, her musical choices are hers, her career path is hers. There are no Svengali stories, no tales of the label pushing her in a direction she didn’t feel comfortable with. None of that. Millie did what she wanted. Her label did try, in the beginning, to change her sound. They sped her vocals up on records so her voice would be in a higher pitch than her deep, earthy alto. But after “Hurts So Good,” they let her fly.

Millie has been self-managed her entire career. Her one marriage, at the beginning of her success, lasted only eight months because her husband tried to control Jackson and her business. “He thought we were gonna be the next Ike and Tina Turner. He thought that he was gonna tell me what to do with my life, and I decided that was not gonna happen. Case closed.”

Millie has also always maintained a large degree of creative control. She co-wrote most her songs from the beginning, and starting with Caught Up, she also co-produced her albums. And she fought when her record label tried to minimize her contribution. “I went down to Muscle Shoals to show (Brad Shapiro) how I do what I do, and co-produced the album. And when the album came out, it said ‘Album concept by Millie Jackson,’ and I hit the ceiling,” she shared in an interview. “I stood up in the middle of the floor and cussed like a banshee. And finally (Spring Records co-head) Roy Rifkind said, ‘Can we please go to lunch? You gonna be the death of me yet.’ And (Spring Records co-head) Bill Spitowski said, ‘We’ll put it on your tombstone: Produced by Millie Jackson.’”

Self-management is a choice Millie realizes probably held her back from big deals and moves that would elevate her to a higher level of stardom, but it as one that allowed her to follow her career on her own terms. In the same interview just mentioned, she explained her unconventional decision. “I write a lot of songs, and I publish them, and I go to work when I feel like it. That’s why I never had a manager; I don’t need anyone to tell me when to go to work. I know if I want to work or not.” She’s also enjoyed a normalcy that her peers who reached higher heights of fame had to sacrifice. “I like being able to go shopping for myself. I go to the supermarket and nobody bothers me. I don’t have a bodyguard. I like that. I think I live a very decent life. I’m a long way from starving, and I’m still me.”

9. She Can Sing Anything

Jackson has half-joked often in her later interviews that people don’t pay attention to the more diverse aspects of her catalog.

“If you listen to Millie Jackson on the radio, you ain’t gonna hear nothing but ‘Back in Love By Monday,’ ‘Hurts So Good,’ and ‘If Loving You is Wrong.’ Like I haven’t made any more songs,” she once complained. “I’ve got thirtysomething albums, only got three songs to be played!” Well, a lot of her songs aren’t exactly radio-friendly, but she’s right. With the expansive discography she has (Millie kept recording until 2001), the cheating songs and the raunchy songs are most popular and well-known. Ironically, while critics bemoaned her resistance to growth over the years, she quietly released two country-inspired albums and a rock-inspired album, in addition to more weighted material. “I write a lot of meaningful songs, but nobody ever heard them,” she’s said. “Because in my case most people would rather only listen to infidelity.”

Her very first single, in fact, leaned more towards the social commentary that ‘important’ soul artists were embracing at the time.

Millie has always said she didn’t want to be a crossover artist, but she didn’t want to stay in an R&B lane sonically, either. Millie always wanted to explore rock and country. “Rock and roll is my spirit, really, but nobody cares,” she shared in a conversation about her lesser-known music. “Tina Turner came through and (everyone) forgot about that.” We’ll get to Millie and Tina in a minute.

Because of her willingness to explore a wide range of music, Jackson’s cover song game rivals that of Luther Vandross. Starting with Luther Ingram’s “If Loving You is Wrong, I Don’t Wanna Be Right,” Millie has put her stamp on hits from Prince, Toto, The Stylistics, even country artist Merle Haggerd. Jackson released her version of his hit “If We’re Not Back in Love on Monday” less than a year after its release, changing the title to “If You’re Not Back in Love by Monday,” and switching up the song from a story about a husband wanting to work it out with his wife, to a mistress encouraging a husband and his wife to try and reconcile.

10. She Intentionally Didn’t Seek Crossover Success

One of the reasons Millie is damn near an obscure artist given her long career and tremendous output is her is because she stayed in a blues and R&B pocket – on purpose. “I was never looking to become that crossover pop star,” she once explained. “Let white folks cross over to me.”

Critics searched for explanations over the years why such a talented singer with Muscle Shoals production wasn’t reaching the pop stardom soul singers like Gladys, Aretha and Tina had achieved, and they usually blamed her language and lyrical content. In 1977, the New York Times opined “…with just a bit more attention to hooks, she could have consistent hits. That wouldn’t constitute selling out, if she’s worried about that, and it would help convey the underlying seriousness of her art to a broader public.”

But Millie was happy to fly under the radar. It gave her more freedom. “When you had all the problems with profanity in the music, nobody mentioned me. The senator’s wife never knew I existed. So I didn’t have to go to Congress.” Jackson was talking about the 1985 congressional hearings spurred by the Parental Music Resource Center, an organization founded by Tipper Gore after she purchased Purple Rain for her daughter, and “Darling Nikki” made her clutch her pearls. Most remember the hearings for the eventual result of Parental Advisory warnings on albums just as rap was emerging, but pop artists were the initial target. Prince, Madonna, Frank Zappa, even the Mary Jane Girls were in the roundup. But not Jackson. “Nobody mentioned my name. Nobody knew I was doing it. I didn’t have to deal with any of that.”

She did enjoy some pop success with Caught Up, but her biggest potential moment for a breakthrough was a 1985 duet with Elton John. Pop/soul duets were in fashion, but though the single was a moderate success in the UK, it never broke in the US.

11. She Has (Possibly One-Sided) Beef with Tina Turner

The two contemporaries Jackson has most been compared to vocally are Gladys and Tina – for example, Elton John approached Jackson for “Act of War” after Tina declined. Millie adores Gladys and counts the fellow Georgian among her favorite vocalists, but there’s something about Tina that just doesn't sit right with her. It’s unclear what the source of her dislike is, but I suspect it’s centered around Tina entering and dominating the rock/soul space as a solo artist just as Millie was plotting a move in that direction.

Jackson did finally record her rock-inspired album, titled Rock n’ Soul, in 1994. She told her audience at a Howard Theater show in 2012 she made the LP because “I wanted Tina Turner to know she wasn't the only black bitch to sing rock’n’roll.”

But then, according to Millie, Tina jacked her single. “I recorded (John Waithe’s) ‘Missing You,’ and I was all excited about it, it was gonna be my next single. And the guys at Muscle Shoals said, ‘Boy you got the song out quick! I heard it at a truck stop.” And I’m trying to figure out how in the world did they hear my song when it won’t be out for two week. And of course, it was Tina Turner, and we had to pull the single and come back with a different one.”

That was in the ‘90s, but Millie was throwing subs at Tina in the ‘80s. Jackson’s 1988 album The Tide is Turning included a song called “You Knocked the Love (Right Outta My Heart).” Listeners will easily hear the Ike and Tina influence in the song, but the track, a song about a passionate love turning into domestic violence, was a shot. “I did that one messin’ with Tina,” Jackson admitted in 2010. “It was about Ike and Tina, and the proceeds for that are supposed to go to battered women. But I didn’t call any names.”

After Millie stopped recording in 2001, she didn’t retire. She spent 13 years hosting a drive time radio show, continued to tour (when she felt like it), and wrote and produced a stage play based on her album Young Man, Older Woman which toured successfully for four years.

Now she’s posted up at home in Atlanta, and a few years ago she was working on a reality show concept for her family (please, contents gods, let this happen while she still has the capacity to do it).

But Millie should be out here at these awards shows and tributes with her contemporaries. She should still be mixing it up with younger artists who emulate her energy without even realizing it (she loves Rihanna, by the way). Auntie Millie is deserving of far more recognition and praise than she’s received. Not just for her outrageous and explicit music and performances, but as a complete artist: as a writer, a producer, a businesswoman, a creative, a pioneer. Alladat. Just because she didn’t go the route of No. 1 hits and stadium tours doesn’t make her any less accomplished. Respect Millie Jackson’s gangster.

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#MusicSermon is a weekly series by Naima Cochrane that highlights the under-acknowledged and under-appreciated urban artists and sub-genres from the '90s and earlier. The series seeks to tell unknown and/or forgotten stories that connect the dots between current music, culture and the foundations of the past.

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